212·3 hours agoSince we’re starting this debate again, I do wish to ask the people that think the Soviets shouldn’t have gone into Poland: what should the Soviets have done?
With benefit of hindsight and access to whatever formerly-secret documents, what is the best course of action for them?
deleted by creator
I’m asking those that believe the Soviets shouldn’t have entered. You seem to believe that the Soviets should, but that they should not have done war crimes. And I would agree, not that I have any knowledge of that, but I am not asking you.
You seem to believe that the Soviets should,
Where did I say or indicate that?
I am not asking you.
Same bro. Dunno why the fuck you guys are trying to make me say that Soviets invading and killing eveyrone was better than the nazi’s invading and killin everyone. Thats fucked up.
Ableism, denouncing Palestine Action for breaking the law in order to slow genocide, Holocaust trivialization, and now both saying the Nazis should have taken over all of Poland and misgendering another user? Incredible, you keep digging deeper.
Well, you said specifically (only said) they shouldn’t have committed war crimes, which to some extent indicates that they should have gone into Poland. If you had a problem with them going into Poland, you should have talked about that and not brought up a different thing.
Why are you talking to me if you don’t want to? You can just… not.
Also I am not your bro.
Also please stop deleting your comments.
deleted by creator
I’m pushing back against the notion that only “guilty nazis” were hurt by the soviets.
Ok… And I never said that?
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
Except that the Soviets did not kill everyone. They did not do something similar to the holocaust.
Ableism, denouncing Palestine Action for breaking the law in order to slow genocide, Holocaust trivialization, and now both saying the Nazis should have taken over all of Poland and misgendering another user? Incredible, you keep digging deeper.
Uhhh Russia invaded unoccupied Poland at the same time as Nazi Germany.
While it’s inaccurate to characterize them as “victims of communism” it’s full blown anti-intellectualism, and astonishingly disrespectful to the polish people, to deny their suffering under Soviet occupation.
The Soviet Union largely stuck to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades earlier, and did so largely to prevent the Nazis from taking all of Poland. Genuinely, what should the Soviet Union have done instead? Let the Nazis take all of Poland?
Oh, it all makes sense now, here you are denouncing Palestine Action for breaking the law in order to slow down genocide. You’re actually a fascist.
deleted by creator
Most of the area the Soviets took are areas in modern Lithuania and Ukraine. Poland had annexed them in the Polish-Soviet War and the Polish-Lithuanian War earlier.
As for the second question, no, I’m not a sociopath, I’m genuinely asking you if you would have rather had the Nazis take all of Poland.
Oh, it all makes sense now, here you are denouncing Palestine Action for breaking the law in order to slow down genocide. You’re actually a fascist.
deleted by creator
It’s entirely good-faith, and you don’t need to resort to insults to avoid it. What should the USSR have done? The west already rejected the USSR’s pleas for an anti-Nazi pact, and the Nazis had already taken the vast majority of Poland.
Oh, it all makes sense now, here you are denouncing Palestine Action for breaking the law in order to slow down genocide. You’re actually a fascist.
deleted by creator
You quite literally claimed the Soviets “out-Nazi’d the Nazis.” You aren’t being a serious person, and you’re hiding behind ableist insults. What about the Lithuanians and Ukrainians annexed by Poland?
Oh, it all makes sense now, here you are denouncing Palestine Action for breaking the law in order to slow down genocide. You’re actually a fascist.
deleted by creator
Most of the area the Soviets took are areas in modern Lithuania and Ukraine. Poland had annexed them in the Polish-Soviet War and the Polish-Lithuanian War earlier.
As for the second question, no, I’m not a sociopath, I’m genuinely asking you if you would have rather had the Nazis take all of Poland.
Oh, it all makes sense now, here you are denouncing Palestine Action for breaking the law in order to slow down genocide. You’re actually a fascist.
You are doing holocaust trivialization with that second-to-last paragraph. While the things listed are bad, they are by no means worse than the Nazis.
deleted by creator
You literally just called someone a sociopath.
Their only option was to out Nazi the Nazis.
Thats pretty much exactly what you said
deleted by creator
-
Assuming everyone pointing out that you were doing Holocaust trivialization is USian is chauvanistic, same with insinuating others must not’ve finished highschool English.
-
You’re doing a great job exampling Canadian love for Nazis.
-
a) not a seppo
b) your facetiousness was rather obviously
Their only option was to out Nazi the Nazis.
as in
they didn’t have to be worse than the nazis but they were
which is holocaust trivialization
World War II began with a coordinated attack on Poland conducted by the Third Reich and the USSR, led by Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin respectively. As of 1 September 1939, the very first day of World War Two, both totalitarian regimes held joint military action against Poland. Starting from 1 September, German bombers were guided onto their targets in Poland from a radio station located in Minsk
In accordance with the secret protocol as to Hitler-Stalin Pact, also known as the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, the new allies – Germany and the Soviet Union – were to jointly invade Poland. Red Army troops were to march into Poland three days following the Reich’s attack. Joseph Stalin, however, did not adhere to the protocol, with his troops advancing into Poland only 17 days after the Germans hit. The delay was caused by concerns over the propaganda discourse in the West, which Stalin wanted to focus on Germany solely.
The class struggle is a cornerstone of Karl Marx’s philosophy. It requires a restructuring of society in accordance with communism. When put in practice, this brought about genocide: the killing of 10 to 15 percent of a given society as well as annihilating its elites and those strata of society that were unwelcome in a communist state. For communists they stood in the way of communist rule and of harnessing entire societies under a totalitarian regime.
The communists spent the decade prior trying to form an anti-Nazi coalition force, such as the Anglo-French-Soviet Alliance which was pitched by the communists and rejected by the British and French. The communists hated the Nazis from the beginning, as the Nazi party rose to prominence by killing communists and labor organizers, cemented bourgeois rule, and was violently racist and imperialist, while the communists opposed all of that.
When the many talks of alliances with the west all fell short, the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact, in order to delay the coming war that everyone knew was happening soon. Throughout the last decade, Britain, France, and other western countries had formed pacts with Nazi Germany, such as the Four-Power Pact, the German-French-Non-Agression Pact, and more. Molotov-Ribbentrop was unique among the non-agression pacts with Nazi Germany in that it was right on the eve of war, and was the first between the USSR and Nazi Germany. It was a last resort, when the west was content from the beginning with working alongside Hitler.
Harry Truman, in 1941 in front of the Senate, stated:
If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances.
Not only that, but it was the Soviet Union that was responsible for 4/5ths of total Nazi deaths, and winning the war against the Nazis. The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few days prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted.
the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact
Putting aside all the usual arguments that get dismissed: What were the complex and mitigating factors that required supplying the Nazi war machine with more raw materials (oil, iron, grain, cotton, rubber, et al.) after the invasion of Poland? At the same time that the famously duplicitous Americans were enacting German tariffs and shifting economic support entirely to the Allies?
Not just after the invasion of Poland, right up until the invasion of the Soviet Union.
On the Russian side, General Thomas, Chief of the German War Industry Department, recorded that “the Russians carried out their deliveries as planned, right up to the start of the attack. Even during the last few days, transports of India rubber from the Far East were completed by express transit trains.”30
This was not because the Russians did not expect to be attacked. As early as September 18, 1940, the Germans learned about anti-German propaganda in the Red Army, and interpreted it as a response to fear of attack by Germany.31 The Kremlin fulfilled its economic commitments to the end because it was determined to give Hitler no cause to attack. Until late in the day, also, the industrial and war materials received from Germany were a very important supplement to Russia’s armament efforts. The raw materials which Germany received were mostly perishable, while the arms and machines received by Russia remained when war came.The Cold War & Its Origins, 1917-1960, Vol. I, Denna F. Flemming, 1961, Chapter 6.
-
The Soviets desparately needed finished goods that they either couldn’t produce, or couldn’t produce in necessary quantities, and the West would not trade them for them.
-
The US’s tariffs were notoriously symbolic. Ford, Coke, Dow Chemical, and many more continued business even into World War II. USian bombers were instructed to avoid USian factories in Nazi Germany.
-
Anti-communism is a fancy name for fascism.
Blackshirts and Reds is a great work that goes over this.
The black book is some hilarious stuff. They count the hypothetical unborn children of nazis. Also it counts the nazis.
Liberals think this is what WW2 was
